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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 posted by GoatBoy in Life Religion

Last night I took my elder daughter to her first basketball practice of 2006. She had taken at least a year off after a less-than-satisfying experience with a league at the nearby community college, where we’d spent a season of co-ed ball observing the coach’s silence regarding the one boy’s total ball hogging and the other boys’ refusal to pass to any girls. So when the parents of one of Kid A’s soccer teammates suggested joining her Upward team, girls only , and only one hour-long practice per week in the church gym less than a mile from our house, we thought—without checking the hotlink I just provided—it sounded good.

* * *

Your friendly, lovable GoatBoy has a rather complicated relationship with churches. I grew up going to the low-key Disciples Of Christ church with my grandparents (who deserve more than half-credit for raising me) and sometimes my mom. My grandparents were Involved, my grandfather being a deacon and my grandmother teaching adult Sunday School classes and being all up in the middle of whatever-they-call-the old-ladies’-group. It epitomized the artificial extended family that I still commend and admire about smaller churches. Then my grandfather’s cousin (who was by now the pastor’s in-law; remember that) either discovered politics or had politics pushed onto him. Either way, all of a sudden in the mid-late ‘80s our little family church was Too Liberal.  Why weren’t we spending our Sundays listening to diatribes on the hottest-button rallying points: The Abortion, The Euthanasia, The Whatever-Robertson-And-Swaggart-And-Falwell-Were-On-About-This-Week? Our pastor most admirably declined to take notes on how he should run his services and on what the congregation needed to take home with them Sunday afternoons. Cue mutiny and mass exodus to reliably conservative D.O.C. church a few miles away. Not that anybody bothered to tell the early adolescent (who had served as ring bearer in the wedding that united our family with the pastor’s) why most of the congregation bailed on the kind and temperate pastor in favor of the considerably larger and noticeably more politically-minded church a few miles down the road. No word on why we traded the Beatitudes for Bootstrap Jesus.  Knowing my grandfather as well as I did, I like to think he was going along with my grandmother to get along, since I missed the chance to ask him. He was a Sermon-on-the-Mount Christian through and through, collecting and distributing just shy of a million pounds of food for our city’s homeless before he died (and occasionally spending parts of some services out in the foyer, now that I think on it). Anyway, by the age of thirteen I was done going along to services after a particularly spittle-flecked and scattered ABORTION! EUTHANASIA! sermon-cum-rally. (I just got a call from my mom and she told me she had bumped into the now-retired pastor of Church B last week; I was reminded that he has a son with Down’s Syndrome—more right-wing projection...how much you want to bet he considered aborting a lot longer than was comfortable for him?  And in his defense he was great at every element of his job that wasn’t that one hour every Sunday.  A genuinely good man who was, let’s say, a little close to a few of the issues against which he’d rail.)

Around this same time my first cousin and her husband got The Calling. A group of students at the state agriculture college saw a charismatic, evangelical, non-denominational bible study quickly roll into a living-room, late-night church service led by a slick and relatively charming former radio D.J. Enter GoatBoy to stay for spring break. The first couple of days were fun. My cousin and her husband had a frogurt shop just off campus and a six-month-old daughter (Goatboy grew up an only child). Then came Tuesday night. Well after dinner the house began to fill with earnest, wide-eyed solicitous twentysomethings. Sometime around eleven the service commenced; tent-revival boilerplate delivered by aforementioned short and round D.J. in what couldn’t be far off from Sam Kinison’s pre-comedy style. By now I was pretty over church so I was as attentive as my daydreaming would allow. Less than an hour later the preachifyin’s over. Great! Late night TV awaits. But nobody’s leaving. The call was issued for any who were having problems or physical ailments to ask The Lord for help. A guy has a wonky wrist. Hands were laid on, praying over the wrist was joined enthusiastically. OK, laying on of hands. Pretty wacky. But I can hang. Then somebody began babbling nonsense. Babbler hit the floor rolling. Another woman began translating the babble into disjointed generic platitudes. And occasionally a congregant or two would cast a glance over at the awkward and self-conscious adolescent trying to make himself invisible at the edges of the roiling worked-up crowd. Danger! If they see I’m not getting it, they might decide I need some mortifying special attention. Crisis was at hand. Solution? Roll those eyes back a little behind half-lids and mutter some nonsense. No flopping or rolling, just enough to blend, baby. Sleep came slowly that night—apparently embarrassment can cause insomnia. My cousin’s a roller. Over the course of the remaining week a superstitious dread of a vengeful and jealous sky god was successfully installed by my cousin’s husband (who had abandoned the Farm Management studies his less-than-rich dairy farmer parents had subsidized—couldn’t find a better place to put this but it was An Issue at the time), where it remained, in steadily decreasing power, for the next five years or so. I prayed nightly for Good Things for Poor People but all motivated by the fear that neglecting to do so would doom me to eternal John The Revelator torment.

Within three years The Right Reverend Anointed Apostle Prophet D.J. had divorced his gorgeous and doting wife, seduced my cousin into a divorce from her sweet and devoted husband and formally adopted my second cousin and changed her name. The previous marriages were Not To Be Spoken Of in the now-storefront church down here in the City. For several years many Good Works ensued but all with an eye toward recruitment. The storefront was traded for an over-sized vacant church building. An abortive syndicated televised half hour was produced. Three more second cousins were born. Secular culture, including Santa and Halloween, were from Satan, but Reverend Cousin still liked his movies and video games just fine.  He got skinny and he got fat with Oprah frequency. A slightly younger and attractive female member moved in as honorary family member to help with the kids where she stayed for years and years. Many winks and nudges were exchanged among we heathen members of the family (as we found out this year, justifiably). He got bored running the Jesus Con and opened a dinner theater(!) in a wing of the church where he wrote and produced all offerings and demonstrated that his talent for writing and drama matched his gifts for hustling a con—decidedly fourth-rate. He got prescription meds, some of which he might have even had the prescriptions for. He ceased going anywhere without some sycophantic goons accompanying. Lawyers were retained. My cousin is Back, rapidly discovering that there are surprising numbers of Good People outside the church (where her “family” of almost twenty years has successfully stuffed her down the memory hole already occupied by two ex-spouses).

* * *

So last night we arrived at the Big Baptist Church edifice that dominates our nearest major intersection. I was a little leery that among the Upward banners on the gym walls touting Teamwork and Sportsmanship was one with the words Memory Verse, but she wants to play basketball, she has a friend on the team, it’s one hour per week. I can hang. We didn’t arrive early and, as there were three teams practicing at once, the meager bleacher space was already mostly taken. Not so crowded that younger daughter and I couldn’t have found a seat, I’m sure, but less-than-welcoming significant glances were being sporadically cast towards the hirsute GoatBoy, of the Not-One-of-Us variety. Used to that, too, with an adult lifetime as a freethinking creative-type here in a deeply crimson state. The floor was too crowded for Kid B to be turned loose with a ball on the one and only court so we spent our time partly in the doorway and partly going outside to walk around and to sit in the car and listen to the radio (younger daughter needed reminding that we only call the loudmouths on the AM band pinheads and that he’s only President Dum Dum in our house).  About thirty-five minutes into the practice, a restless daughter and I made our way back to the gym. But it’s quiet in there. Walking down the hall, we heard no balls bouncing and no shoes squeaking; the gym looked empty until we were in the doorway. Maybe they cut the practice short this first week and elder daughter was waiting for me. But as I made it to the door I saw all three teams, each seated in a circle, talking quietly. And it looked like there was a prayer in there somewhere. I tumbled to the fact that soccer friend’s parents have pulled a small fast one on us with their casual “just fun, low key” description of matters. So now your humble GoatBoy’s bath, snack, and book nighttime routine had to make room for a little Talk with elder daughter, a talk he’d gratefully avoided thus far. 

“What were you guys talking about when you were all sitting down in a circle?”
“They were praying.  And we were talking about our jerseys and how we’ll get stars on them for sportsmanship and stuff.” (I bet that Memory Verse will net you a star or two, sweetie.)
“So what do you do when everybody’s praying?”
“I just close my eyes and bow my head.”
“Yeah, that’s what daddy does, too. That’s a respectful and polite thing to do. I just want to make sure you know that you don’t have to change anything about who you are according to who you’re with.”
“Oh, sure. Can I try those vanilla snaps mommy brought home?”
“Yeah. They’re good, too.”

Your Tolerant Agnostic narrator goes out of his way not to step on the toes of the faithful by whom he is seemingly always surrounded. No Dawkins-style atheist evangelizing here. So, right or wrong, I get a little resentful when smiling, friendly people get that hungry look that signifies the contemplation of Working On my children. I don’t apologize for the protectiveness but neither am I necessarily proud of the resentment. I have no problem if my daughters, upon reaching an age of reason, should choose to gravitate towards an artificial extended family. But until then, hands off, creeps. This constitutes a central pillar of my Belief. And now, thanks to our slightly disingenuous soccer friends (and our trusting failure to research) I’m going to have to find a reasonable means of reinforcing that pillar. If there’s going to be a belief instilled in our children, it’s going to be one that’s come to freely, and not one that’s hammered home. And if it comes down to forfeiting the sixty bucks we already paid for the season then so be it. So this winter will find this cheerfully tolerant agnostic treading gingerly the line between ensuring nobody pushes a belief on my daughter and pushing our own worldview so hard that the alternative becomes attractive.

Pray for me.

{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 04:25 PM

Great story, GB. Your daughters are lucky to have you. You’ll need to update us how her season goes.

I’m so curious what second cousin’s name was changed to.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/15 05:54 PM

Thanks. 

It was her last name.  I went back and forth on that clause but I wasn’t sure if formal adoption made name change explicit enough.  And that was the important part.  Because Dad was still around.  Still in that church for years, actually.  ‘Take her, she’s mine’ action in the bush-league cult scene!

Sorry about the (lack of) para breaks.  I started it in notepad and I guess I kinda finished it there, too.  Didn’t look nearly so ugly there.  My bad.  I’ll preview it as a post first next time so I can get a better view of the landscape.

Oh, and maybe I ended those phrases with prepositions as a style choice.  D’ja think of that?  Oh, nooooo.

/joke
//fine editing job



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Moira
11/15 07:00 PM

I’d pray for you except a) I don’t pray and b) you & your brood seem to be just fine. All the same… *wafts good mojo*

Good luck for the season.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 07:07 PM

I’ll pray to the secular gods, the ones who ask solely for Reason.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 07:07 PM

In other words, I’ll waft good mojo.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by rev. dimmer
11/15 07:10 PM

I’d be so bummed if I did pray for you and it worked. So little room already. Nice piece GB.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/15 07:44 PM

Damn, I found another couple of tense issues.  And I checked it over three times just for that.

I get too conversational and drop into present tense without noticing it, dammit.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/15 07:45 PM

It doesn’t help I guess that in at least one place it’s intentional.  You’d think since I’m placing my own hurdles I wouldn’t build ‘em so high.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 07:52 PM

If you’re talking about the switches in tense during the bible-thumping sessions with your cousin, I took those as deliberate. Jumping between description and an inner dialogue, if that makes any sense. They didn’t strike me as jarring or problematic.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/15 08:08 PM

Yeah, that was the intentional part.  But I found one in the first post-jump church gym paragraph that wasn’t.  No biggie.  Apparently I tumble.  Something to know about me.  That I tumble.

I was bound to hate it but I needed to knock some of the rust off.  I should probably be shutting up about it about three posts ago.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 08:13 PM

I really very much liked it, GB. Don’t get all shy on me now.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 08:14 PM

Whatever “Tumble” was supposed to be, let me know and I’ll fix it. I’m so sorry, I’m a bit sleepy and out of it hte first few days of trazadone.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/15 08:41 PM

Tumbled.  More carny-speak.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/15 09:19 PM

Oh, duh. Yeah I thought you meant to say Tumble but I see you’re speaking about tenses again. Good, b/c I was really thrown by that and started thinking, “Shit, I’m an idjiot.”



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/16 12:46 AM

I just remembered.  The first night closing up the frogurt shop they’d had a good day.  They showed me the z tape.  I said “right on” or something. 

Can you say ‘Praise the Lord?’

I know this may hard to believe but I’ve pretty much always been a smartass (totally my grandma’s fault, she was always whispering ace material in my ear to slay the old ladies before and after church.) This was my first night of a week and home was at least an hour’s drive away.  Through a mouthful of tongue blood:

Prayzalor.”

Probably made for an easier time than “That depends, can you go fuck yourself?” would have.  “Can you say?” I’m fuckin thirteen, jackass.  How many kinds of retarded would I have to be?

/better than therapy



{author}'s avatar
Posted by flock
11/16 12:21 PM

That was a great read, goatboy.  Thanks.

My aunt and uncle, after a recent visit, left behind a book for me with an inscription inside, saying something to the effect of, “Read this, and the next time we see each other, we’ll discuss.” The book?  Rick Warren’s, “A Purpose-Driven Life.” Blecch.  I love them dearly, but this is the first time they’ve decided to approach the subject of what my beliefs are.  I hope they get less aggressive with their evangelizing, not more, when and if I inform them that I’m an atheist.  And I -really- hope we successfully avoid the subject of creationism.  That uncle is the one who thinks the world is 70,000 years old.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/16 12:46 PM

You can always hope for a massive scandalous meltdown.  My cousin (who had abandoned the hard sell with me years ago) and my overbearing aunt are both keep-to-themselves Tiggers, not-quite-so-sure and much-less-proud Tiggers.  For the aunt this transformation was pretty much instantaneous.  And holidays just got easier now that I don’t have to bite through my tongue hearing about how wonderfully talented everyone connected with the acoustic-tile-celing, tile-floored, karaoke-track-accompaniment theater is (they’re not - though,all bias aside, my cousin is a pretty game trooper).  In fact, Sunday night at dinner my aunt delivered not only an acknowledgement of my own creative endeavors (unprecedented) but professed a liking for one of the songs.  One I wrote, even!  Better than that?

It was dirty, filthy ol’ Neighbor Lady!  I was speechless.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/16 12:55 PM

That uncle is the one who thinks the world is 70,000 years old.

Oh my god, what a rube! It’s 7,000 years old. He didn’t do well in math, did he?



{author}'s avatar
Posted by flock
11/16 02:41 PM

He’s a CS prof, software developer, and an ex-architect, yet he firmly believes that carbon-14 dating is a sham.

professed a liking for one of the songs.  One I wrote, even!  Better than that?

It was dirty, filthy ol’ Neighbor Lady!

Auntie’s down, she cool.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by marleyinoc
11/16 11:30 PM

I was interested enough (it grabbed me) to read but after 40 lines or so I realized I was kinda confused which church was extreme and which seemed okay and, I stopped reading.

So is there any chance you’ll reword this so I can finish it?

I’m an x-baptist, x-pentecostal, and since I was going to church with my x-fiance I guess I am x-methodist.

I still believe that God loves me and lean toward the need for somehow Him to extend a way to save me (things i don’t want to do i do and all that) and love to read a good religion story, bashing or otherwise.

I know I should have read it all to completion before commenting, but when I start out confused, I usually… oh, shit, never mind, let me read it....

Oh, this is where I stopped… pastor with son with downs syndrome. Was the affliction foreseeable then? And, you do know some DS people, right? I wouldn’t want to trade with them, I admit, but I’ve really liked those I’ve met, and probably like them more than most “normal” people I meet… While that’s not a good reason for DS to exist, barring it’s extinction, I wouldn’t have wanted them not to exist. Even if it were my child.

And as far as your child, my parents never pushed anything on me. I grew up in a Baptist church and my mother taught Sunday school. None of us really go to church much anymore, well, my sister does, and she is pretty committed, and so my mom does when she is with family that does…

Anyway, grew up in church, left, chose to go back, left, went back with fiance, left, now wondering if I should maybe go back to church because, honestly, life is kinda blase and I feel pretty good when I talk to God.

I admit, though, so far he hasn’t asked me to bomb Iraq. President Dum-Dum, but only in our house… lol. Pretty funny. But Pres Dum-Dum is one thing I’d shout from a mountain-top.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/17 01:05 AM

"Was the affliction foreseeable then?  And, you do know some DS people, right? I wouldn’t want to trade with them, I admit, but I’ve really liked those I’ve met, and probably like them more than most “normal” people I meet…

It was but I don’t know how rare it was to be screened then.  I have known DS people and I agree with you completely.  And I’ve also been a early-twentysomething expecting parent.  Which is scary and overwhelming when you’re expecting a child you can count on becoming independent (I tried to type “a healthy child” there but now I’m all gunshy about being misunderstood).  There was no judgement implied in how long he contemplated, just granting him the same humanity as everyone else.  We all doubt.  It had to have crossed his mind, even after his son was born.  It’s just that he probably had more reason than most to feel guilty for it so much as crossing his mind. 

You had to have been there for the delivery of this service.  Uncharacteristically over the top.  Normally he played it straight and let an associate pastor or deacon be the hype man.  I talked to my mom about this yesterday and 20 years later she remembers the same sermon.  It sure seemed like he either thought someone in those pews was thinking aborting would have been a good idea or he was working overtime to convince himself.

I still believe that God loves me and lean toward the need for somehow Him to extend a way to save me

That’s cool.  I just wasn’t born with the Believe Bone.  I’ve got a chronic incurable case of Sez Who.  Like I said in the piece, I have a complicated relationship with churches.  If they are below a certain size I’m still totally comfortable in them and sometimes really do miss the fellowship.  But what happens is if I spend too long a time, if I come to too many services and take advantage of that fellowship with all these lovely people I start to feel guilty.  Because I don’t believe.  I feel like a fraud.  For what it’s worth I also don’t disbelieve, it’s just the only honest answer I can give to God’s existance is “I don’t know”.  And that wouldn’t be a problem except that I am comfortable with that ambiguity.  It’s a question I can’t and don’t need to answer and I’m content there.  And sooner or later my sweet friends, out of nothing but the most altruistic of motives, will be complelled to save me.

Have you ever tried to make a case for agnosticism in a church to an audience of believers?  I don’t like the margin on that deal so I sure hope I never find myself engaged in that attempt.

Unitarians are pretty groovy with it, though.  Which makes that an option, though not a very close one.

And as far as your child, my parents never pushed anything on me. I grew up in a Baptist church and my mother taught Sunday school.

I don’t recall ever hearing where you’re from but our brand of Big Church Baptists knock doors as much as the Jehova’s Witnesses and Mormons put together.  I know my kids are going to get peer pressure out the ass and we can deal with that.  I just think an adult working a kid is a rigged game.

But Pres Dum-Dum is one thing I’d shout from a mountain-top.

I live in Oklahoma.  This activity would be both physically impossible and could result in an increase in my health insurance premiums.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by marleyinoc
11/17 03:21 AM

smile I sure understood all of that, no confusion. What’s more--your words were several times poetic, and I found myself nodding “yes”.

Thanks for the response. Again, I think I was confused with your post and should have read it again, especially on the DS part, which I think was what sparked a comment.

When I talked about the “save me” part, I was talking about the gist of salvation according to Christians “He who begot...” John 3:16…

Am I sold? I don’t know, I am wondering exactly what it means. Is this a way to explain God wanting to reach down to us? Is it another human explanation and ritual? Is it some trick or formula to help us follow a path of peace and happiness? Was it written originally by the Elite to keep the masses down?

This isn’t worded well but I just want to illustrate that questions like these are questions similar to the many I’ve asked myself over and over again. Well, I took time out for other stuff…

As I said, I am nodding yes, especially on the Sez Who in this post, but I think that leaning toward Sez Who is human nature, and no one is born with the Believe Bone. Can you think of something witty for “thinking maybe I should believe but I don’t know?” I think you sized it up when you said “sometimes I miss the fellowship.”

Sometimes I miss fellowship and I also miss the tango with “what if” and “what is” and “what will be” or something like that. Thinking about it I guess opens my head similar to picking my eyes from a monitor and looking out a window to relieve them. Just kinda gives some relaxation from day to day events, I guess.

Honestly, I have never been to a church where someone didn’t argue about scripture, some functions arrangement, or whatever. Churches are filled with humans. And we err. But I think the scary part (that chases me out) is when it starts feeling like a tupperware party and sell-sell-sell is on everyone’s mind…

If it really comes down to personal faith, why push it so hard and get all wiggy?

Again, I’ve reread your post and I appreciate your effort and enjoyed reading it. All the best to you and yours…



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/17 01:35 PM

I was raised catholic and so that explains a lot. The church I went to as a kid? They were going to remodel it a little, nothing major, and though it was an old catholic church with a marble alter and big beams pointing upward and stained glass windows (pictures of saints), it wasn’t exactly breathtaking architecture, either. My father was parish council president, and was involved (and Involved) in the remodeling decisions.

Anyway, very minor suggestions for improvement were made, planned, ready to begin, and some of the traditionalists at the church left bomb threats for the rectory, us, everybody.

Fuck it.

But to be honest I believed in God until 2001. Not in any Bible-thumping sense, just in some “probably” sense (I asked the same questions you ask). Didn’t go to church or anything, but when you’re brought up in as thick a religious environment as I was, it takes a helluva thing to knock it out of you. So when 9/11 happened (groan, I hate bringing that up, it just feels clunky), i didn’t stop having faith out of some “how could god allow this” moment, I just thought I was going to die, and in the 60 seconds or whatever when I thought my life was over, I knew, quite suddenly, that my death meant my absence and nothing more. Like finding out there’s no santa claus. “DUH!” I didn’t then have the time to have any emotion about it, but I think since then, it’s been (if anything) a relief.

I don’t call myself an atheist though. While I seriously doubt the existence of a god, I can neither prove nor disprove, so I just prefer to stay out of the argument. If faith gives people comfort, I encourage them to keep it. As long as they accept that it’s not an interest of mine to have any.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/17 01:50 PM

"While I seriously doubt the existence of a god, I can neither prove nor disprove, so I just prefer to stay out of the argument. If faith gives people comfort, I encourage them to keep it. As long as they accept that it’s not an interest of mine to have any.

Amen.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by balderdash
11/17 02:20 PM

Good work Goatboy. All of my kids’ life I “preached” tolerance. I’ve seen religeous prejudice up close, being raised in the fart flap of the bible britches, and I don’t like it.
Now I am sorry. I feel like my sheeplike tolerance has enabled these butt-wipes to seize control of things that should be ours. They’re doing everything they can to hamstring public education, raising hell about taxes going toward publicly funded recreational opportunities till eventually they get the monopoly on all things educational and recreational, don’t even get me started on “faith based health care”. Screw that shit. Still in all, believe what you must. I am still a big believer in religeous freedom. I think people are wired to be spiritual or not, with all kinds of degrees in between. I just find proselytism offensive.

so. how’s everyone else doing?



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/17 02:35 PM

"I just find proselytism offensive.

Me too.  It’s hard not to take it as “Know what’s wrong with you?”



{author}'s avatar
Posted by balderdash
11/17 04:03 PM

Asking if someone “has been saved” is about as appropriate as “So. D’ya like buttsex?” There are times when that’s a good question. From a stranger at your door, it’s a little too intimate.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by balderdash
11/17 04:04 PM

oh you can take the girl out of the episcopal church, but not very far. I fear we stay starchy.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 04:41 PM

Hey All—a tame religious discussion has been born.  You know I need to weigh in.  The only point to be made by me is with respect to…

It’s hard not to take it as “Know what’s wrong with you?”

I hear that perspective.  But know that—as a follower of Jesus—if I ever “go there” with a non-believer, I do everything I can to come across with more of a “Here’s what was wrong with me and this is what helped” approach.  In the same way that I might say, “My laptop was running really slow and then I learned about putting more memory in it.  Do you think your laptop is slow or are you doing just fine?  Anyway, I went to the store and found that you could buy more RAM and boy is my life better now.  I can surf all the porn I want!”

The last part was a joke.  But I hope the intended thought is expressed.  Christians can come across as total insensitive morons.  The right approach is to share the problem they had/have and what has been done for them that helped them.  If the audience has the “Belief Bone”, then something will ring true for them and the conversation will go further.  If nothing is resonating for them, then move on to favorite sandwich ingredients.

By the way, my approach eliminates the need for Christians to judge anyone else.  There’s no basis for judging someone else when you recognize just how screwed up you are.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 04:43 PM

And, I definitely enjoyed reading the article—well articulated and thought provoking.  As a dad of 4 kids, I felt like I was right there walking around that hallway with the younger ones waiting for practice to end.  That is...when I’m not coaching.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Lady Penelope
11/21 04:56 PM

FOUR? Wow, I didn’t realize there were four of ‘em. I’m glad to hear your perspective on this, Jordanian. Great comments.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/21 05:19 PM

I feel you, Jordanian. 

Even when I was a believer I always felt that the best witnessing was silent.  You’ve got it wired, you’re happy, things are clicking and then someone asks “What’s your secret?” That’d be like taking inbound sales calls.

Anything more pushy has always seemed like cold-calling to me.  Sure you’re going to get some hits but, by an overwhelming margin, most people are going to hung up on you.  Grumpily.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 05:47 PM

The problem with the sales analogy is that we all have known people who were in sales, but either (1) hated the product they were selling or (2) didn’t believe it would actually make someone’s life better, they were just getting paid to do their job.

That doesn’t describe the Jesus-follower.  And it’s possible that the person “on the other end of the line” will benefit from your product, but they just don’t know it yet.

But hey, I don’t know anyone who actually listens to telemarketers anymore and door-to-door banging is more likely to get you in jail than to usher in a new convert, so I would say that it’s time for phony Christians to shut their pie-holes and for Jesus-Followers to LIVE IT FOR CHRIST’ SAKE!



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/21 06:15 PM

Exactly.  Living it is the only way to witness, AFAIC.

Don’t get me wrong, Jesus is way cool.  I’ve just got a bit of a problem with His Dad.  I appreciate the intervention Jesus came to provide in our relationship with the (psychotic?) wrathful Sky God but it’d be even nicer if the Sky God wasn’t, you know, a borderline personality.  Poor old Job.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 06:29 PM

Job’s response proves it all, doesn’t it?  Job was a superstar.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 06:30 PM

Job should have been on the cover of Old Testament Wheaties.  His “friends” who came to confront him of the sin in his life...they are more akin to the current self-righteous “YOU’RE GOING TO HELL!” chumps who give the genuine article a bad name.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 06:33 PM

And by the way…

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job 42:10 - 17;&version=31;



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/21 06:35 PM

"Job’s response proves it all, doesn’t it?"

You mean Job’s response to Satan successfully tempting God into tormenting His most devout worshipper on a bet?  wink



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 06:38 PM

I disagree about there being temptation.  While pain like (hopefully) we’ve never known (though I bet we’ve had plenty of pain) was allowed by God, God had the situation completely within His control the whole time.

Job’s life is a tough situation for people to swallow.  Fortunately, he handled it.  I’m not sure if I could have.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/21 07:52 PM

Why’d He take the bet, then?



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/21 10:00 PM

There could be a number of reasons.  One comes to mind is the fact that I (as well as the billions who have read the story) learn so much from this story about God’s power, Satan’s position, God’s sovereignty over all things, how to remain strong in my faith through trials, the list goes on.

Perhaps he let Satan have some room to let Satan know his place.  In short, it’s kind of like Satan told God to “put up or shut up” and God put up...and Satan shut up.

Job’s story and his strong faith are an example to the rest of us who endure hardships.

And as to the as yet unspoken question of “What gives God the right?!” Well, if you buy that He’s the creator, then the creation is subject to Him.  Fortunately, we know that He loves us.  If a person believes what the Bible has to say.

There is Someone who endured far worse than Job, though, and He was even more blameless than Job.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/21 11:29 PM

"Well, if you buy that He’s the creator, then the creation is subject to Him.

The subject’s entire family was slaughtered.

There is Someone who endured far worse

I dunno.  If I had to choose a day of torture and a three-day coma or watching my family be killed by He Loves Us that’s a no-brainer.

(Just because I’ve been in such discussions a time or two… I preemptively state that I am in no way agitated or disturbed, bitter or angry while discussing.  Often my bluntness can, without vocal inflection and non-verbal cues, be misconstrued as strident or combative.)



{author}'s avatar
Posted by Jordanian
11/22 01:35 AM

I appreciate the clarification of your tone and demeanor.  I, also, am not riled in any way.  We’re just sharing thoughts.

I’m not sure if you were being funny with the first thing, but I was referring to all of us—His creation—being subject to God, that is, He has the self-given right to do with us as He chooses.  It’s a bitter pill to swallow, but Job was able to.

Just as a point of clarification, if it was a three day coma, then the whole thing is garbage.  He had to be fully dead for it all to make sense.

While Job’s life story is horrific by all accounts, it does show a perspective that we humans don’t have by nature.  But, I don’t think you keep Christianity at arms length because of Job.  After all, he wasn’t duped.  He knew he had it bad, and he was able to make peace with it without blaming or taking shots at God.  I’m guessing that for you there is something more that is keeping you where you are.  Not Job’s pain, but yours—small or large.  I don’t mean to get personal.

Job’s story hinges on trust.  Job trusted God despite the horrors of his life.



{author}'s avatar
Posted by GoatBoy
11/22 02:02 AM

"I’m guessing that for you there is something more that is keeping you where you are."

No pain.  Like I said, the only thing I can say honestly on the subject is “I don’t know”.

Job was just an illustration of the problems I have with Jesus’ Father.  He did this to prove a point?  To Satan?  The being that turned Satan loose on Job and his family is so capricious so as to not be worthy of the effort in trying to please Him.

I wouldn’t curse God were I Job.  I’d just kinda forget his number.



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